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HI, this is one of the moderators for the forum, please note that on review of this thread there has been spoilers to the plot blacked out, if you wish to read these please highlight the text - if not it would be best to read the books as these pieces of information may spoil your reading pleasure. Thank you your friendly moderating team.

 

Hello all,

I've just finished the last page of Odalisque, which I only just bought last week for my wife to read. Angus &, Robertson had it on sale for $7.95 in trade. plus I couldn't resist when I saw that Fiona lives in Adelaide. Yay Adelaide!

My wife (who has read a lot more fantasy than I have) really enjoyed the book, and convinced me to pick it up when she'd finished by telling me about the castration scene. ",Hmm",, thought I, ",Seems pretty different to the normal sword &, sorcery stuff",. Pretty much my only fantasy reading had been LOTR as a teen and more recently George R.R. Martin's ",A Song of Ice and Fire", series, which I found deliciously scheming, complex and character driven.

I have mixed feelings about Odalisque. If Lazar is around 28-29 as Fiona mentioned in another thread, and he's been the Spur for 15 years as depicted in the book, then that made him only 13-14 in the Prologue. Doesn't fit with his description nor the experienced way in which he dispatches a dozen trained guards with ease. Certainly doesn't make me think of Colin Firth! Overall, the book started well but quickly became contrived with evidence of heavy handed plot developments being forced on the players. The way Fiona uses dialogue is quite stilted, and repetitive. Often characters will rehash entire conversations in their heads, making no further observations or coming to no conclusions.

People have described Fiona's books as moving along at a fast pace, but I actually found it frustratingly slow and unnatural, deducing each and every plot twist from what I would consider rather obvious hints, well in advance of the narrative getting to the same event. I found Pez extremely irritating, probably because Tyrion in George RR Martin's series is such an excellent example of what a misunderstood and loathed dwarf could be. In every single scene in which Pez appeared, a bystander or another main character felt compelled to mention that he is insane. We got the hint the first time you told us Fiona! What's most frustrating is the fact that there's no reason for Pez to pretend to be insane anyway, since Maliz didn't know him. Similarly, Salmeo couldn't appear without you using the obligatory ",The huge black man", moniker. Why would Salmeo titter effeminately like every good cliched Eunuch if he has intact testicles?

I drew some strong parallels between characters in Odalisque and those in the Holy Bible. Lazar is a combination of Jesus and Lazarus, both of whom died and were resurrected after 3 days. Jesus died to save all humanity from the ultimate consequence of our sin, and Lazarus was resurrected BY Jesus (a close friend of Lazarus' family) in an awesome demonstration of faith in action. , The public flogging of Lazar as he took Ana's punishment on himself was pretty much what happened to Jesus as he was flogged in the lead up to His crucifixion, and brought to full visual impact in Gibson's film ",The Passion of the Christ",.

The book of Ruth in the Bible is a love story describing how a young woman is taken to a foreign land where she casts herself on the mercy of a wealthy landowner named, wait for it, Boaz. Boaz notices her amongst the other destitute women gathering food from his fields and elevates her to his most favoured, marrying her at the end of the book. Seems like the way things are heading with Boaz and Ana.

Judas Iscariot sold his soul to Satan and betrayed Jesus to the authorities. Judas is Tariq, who becomes possessed by the evil Maliz (malice?)

Anyway, things I did enjoy are the Ottoman Empire setting, the pace of the first third of the book, and the fact that, after finishing I care what happens to the characters in the future installments. I don't know if any of you have read any of Neal Stephenson's writing? He's possibly been pigeon-holed as a geeky cyberspace SF author, but Cryptonomicon and the ",Baroque Cycle", trilogy should dispel that. The main female character from the Baroque Cycle is a young woman rescued from the Ottoman Emperor's harem, in a sub-book also titled Odalisque. Stephenson is not an author like Fiona, by which I mean that he describes settings in great detail, has a tendancy to have his characters drift off into absorbing historical references/observations, and is not afraid of speeding up and slowing down the narrative regularly. The main male character ",Half-Cocked Jack", shares a genital mutilation with Salmeo but manages to love despite not being able to satisfy his own fleshly desires. This series runs to well over 3000 pages (4000 if you include Cryptonomicon) and is well worth a read if you like the era and place Fiona has set Percheron in.

Fiona, I think the main failing of Odalisque is that not much actually happens. People talk a lot (followed by them thinking about the conversation again), but other than the brief prologue, the castration scene, the flogging and the execution, there's no action. You have a tendancy to lead your readers by the nose through the plot. I think you started having everyone describe Pez as looking like a bird somewhere in the first quarter of the book! I haven't ready the second or third books yet, but going by hints in Odalisque, I would say that Ana is going to become the goddess and Lazar is going to become Beloch. You seem to be placing a lot of emphasis on the characters discovering the latent deity within themselves and then fighting the inevitable battle which occurs every few hundred years. Is this what makes a book ",Fantasy",?


I suppose that your books would appeal to women more so than men. I should have twigged when reading the back, where you describe Lazar as ",...the secretive and eligible Spur of Percheron",. , Designed to bring in the female romance fans I reckon.

In closing, I will be buying the second and third books in the Percheron series to see how things turn out for Ana, and Kett (a character that I am sure you have much more in store for). It's also fantastic that you are enjoying success in your writing and that you live in Adelaide, the best kept secret in the world. I've lived here all my life and can't think of a better city to continue to do so in!


Cheers,

Nathan

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Sorry, I didn't realise I posted that while not logged in! Didn't want you to think I wasn't brave enough to own up to my opinion! Nathan

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Hey Nathan, Fiona is away overseas for a few weeks so may not be along to talk and welcome you herself for a while, but on her behalf and my own WELCOME!! :wave They are some interesting points that you have raised and I will probably have to re-read the books to evaluate what points you have raised, but I would suggest that you read the second book in the series and you may find somethings that take you by surprise. Unfortunately, the third book in this trilogy isn't being released in Australia until Christmas 2007 so still at least 5 months to wait for that one. I might also suggest that you give some of Fiona's other books ago, you never know what might peak your interest - I would suggest the Quickenings Trilogy (Myrren's Gift is book one) for something that may have more action and move quicker though her first trilogy the Trinity Series is also very good. Please take a look around the site and don't be afraid to join in to any conversations that are taking place. Welcome Again - Ailsa

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HAIL the fantasy writer!

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Hi Ailsa,

I'd have to say that "traditional" Sword & Sorcery type fantasy is not really my cup of tea, so I probably won't look for Fiona's earlier series.

Other than the George R.R. Martin series which was excellent (apart from the most recent book, where he seems to have decided that it's in his financial interest to turn the series into a neverending annuinty like Robert Jordan appears to have done with the Wheel of Time) I've not read much fantasy at all.

Years ago I read Magician by Feist, and didn't really enjoy it. The Daughter of the Empire series (not what I'd consider traditional Fantasy) by Feist and Wurts is far superior. That must be Janny Wurts influence! Complex plotting, surprising twists and genuine adreneline rushes during the critical points of the story.

I will be picking up Emmissary pretty soon though. I'm intrigued to find out what happens with Kett the Raven, despite his character being not much more than a plot device in Odalisque.

Cheers,
Nathan

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Hmmm...a very provocative analysis. Obviously a reader who has specific expectations and is not shy to comment about any aspects that do not meet them. Everyone has different expectations and preferences regarding what they want/ need to read - thankfully - and some aspects are more important than others. Eg some people prefer action, others focus on characters who build the plot, literary writing style, setting, genre with specific style and content etc. Yes I too think this novel has a stronger romantic thread than Fiona's earlier work and that's okay. I must confess your analysis read strongly like a teacher's detailed critique and constructive feedback of a student's assignment. Your choice of other authors is intruiging and comparing them is difficult because each author has their own individual voice and niche, style, storytelling.  By the time I got to the end I was actually surprised that you offerred heartfelt congratulations. Nevertheless all feedback is welcome and constructive, and worth taking notice of - it is always interesting hear new perspectives, to learn what reactions etc novels/books elicit and also that some readers inform the author exactly and more about what they think. Hmmm.. interesting

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I suppose the book affected me enough to spend half an hour composing a post in the middle of the night! I wanted to express my view and reaction to the book, and I wanted to encourage Fiona to keep it up.



I certainly didn't mean to sound condescending or like a teacher. Heck, I've never been published or even written a whole book! My only qualification to comment is as a paying customer and lover of books. I do read a LOT of books, just not much Fantasy. I would say my expectations were open since I had not read anything of Fiona's previously.



Why do you say my choice of other authors is intriguing? I mentioned Neal Stephenson and George R R Martin because to me those authors have written books that cover similar historic settings or central themes to Odalisque, and I thought my comparisons would be of interest to people who enjoyed Odalisque enough to post in the Percheron forum. For me, those similarities make the comparisons I drew quite relevant.



If I were a published author running a community forum focused on my work, I'd be pretty keen to host some lively and intelligent debate. Fertile ground for future work. For this reason, I think Fiona would be happy enough to have me posting my undiluted views here. I'll be buying the rest of the series, and at the end of the day, that's why writers do what they do, right?



I thought I'd add that Odalisque has inspired me to read my wife's copy of "The Ill Made Mute", for not much more reason than it's another Fantasy written by another Aussie, that several of you seem to have read. That will enable me to make another (slightly less) relevant comparison, which I will take the liberty of posting here

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Great reply - your contributions are welcome.  I think you misunderstood me - I was actually congratulating you for providing valuable input and for the surprise ending not attacking it.  The teacher ref was not an attack but a way of describing how the level of input was thorough and detailed - I could have said an editor etc. Yes every view is valuable and yours certainly stimulated interest and for that reason deserves to be heard and taken notice of.  I was intruiged by your mentioning of other authors because I ceased reading their work and now might resume.

A flaw with this form of communication is that without the normal face to face communication tools -  prosodic cues, pitch, tonality and facial expressions etc - things get lost and potentially misinterpreted. So here's to your next addition on this site - Enjoy the series .

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Nathan, I just want to put in here - that I enjoyed your comments as well, they gave me something else to think about for when I next read Odalisque. For a woman who is very picky with her Fantasy writers, to find someone that can write and associate everything that I love to read in one book I find that I can become quite protective of the author in a way I suppose. I hope that you find some sort of enjoyment from the rest of the series even if it just to see what happens to the characters that have caught your fancy.

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HAIL the fantasy writer!

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No offence taken at all! I think I'd be a bit disappointed if I didn't get any reaction to my post. Amirzand01, I'm interested to hear which Neal Stephenson book/s you may have read. His early work (Snowcrash, Zodiac) is definitely cybergeek SF type stuff, and not nearly as good as his recent historical/fantasy fiction. "The Diamond Age" is one that I think might appeal to both of you. Featuring a young female protagonist, the story takes place in the near future in a "Neo Victorian" setting. It's a unique blend of Fantasy, historic fiction and cyberpunk. It's also not so large a commitment as the Baroque Cycle in terms of length. Anyway, I'll try to keep the posts in this thread mostly related to Odalisque! Nathan

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Hi Nathan





It's very hard how to know the best way to respond to you because I don't really know what you expect me to say - if you were expecting a reply to what is really a rather condescending post. I won't say thank you because you had very little good to say about Odalisque and I won't consider changing my style of writing radically because something about it right now seems to gel with a lot of readers out there - you cannot get to #1 consistently without appealing to a lot of people.





That it didn't work for you I happily accept -but the fact that you disliked Magician, whereas most of the fantasy community around the world would likely hold that up as one of their favourite novels in the genre, probably reveals a lot about why Odalisque and no doubt all of my work would hold little appeal for you. And unlike Ailsa, I wouldn't urge you to try any of the other series. I do write for the mass market and that means my work has to have a very broad appeal across both sexes, across all ages. I am very aware that at a very specific and individual level, it is perfectly reasonable to expect it to miss the mark for some readers and that's life as a writer. You cannot please everyone although you'll do your best when you're a 'popular fiction' author to please as many as you can. I'm guessing you fall into that very specific gang of readers.

That said, every writer hopes to improve his/her craft and I definitely aim to keep refining my skills, learning from other writers, through experience and of course, from readers, without whom all of this effort is pointless. I used to have a bad habit of head hopping and I'm getting on top of that now, recognising it as I do it and trying to banish that from my work. I do also accept that I have a tendency towards being repetitive at times but this is usually to avoid criticism from readers that although they knew something, it doesn't necessarily mean another character does. I do try to show how each character learns the various plot intrigues. Anyway, this is all part of the craft and I feel sure I'll keep improving although once again I should reiterate that my style of writing is pretty much set and it is not going to shift too dramatically so I think it would be best if you don't punish yourself any further (grin)





I'm very happy to welcome you to the board and hope you'll stay around and continue to prompt lively discussion on the fantasy genre and on all subjects in our general forums.

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F~

You commented on your issue of head hopping.  This is, of course, one of those icky "rules" writers are told they should never break.  Keep your story in one POV.  I think that rule is too hard and fast in some minds and don't find that you've had a problem with it in what I've read.

R.A. Salvatore gave a great interview not that long ago where he stressed that idea that POV shifting is not the great demon it is made out to be.  He tells of turning in a novel that featured much POV shifting and his editor told him he couldn't do it and had to fix it.  Bob asked him why and the editor said it was confusing to readers.  Bob asked him if he was confused when he read it and the guy answered "No."  So what's the problem, Bob asked.  POV shifting/head hopping can be confusing if done poorly, which you have not suffered from.

The contention that the works are probably better accepted by female readers is a profoundly absurd statement in my estimation.  In my position as a bookseller I can say with absolute certainty that the gender breakdown is nearly 50-50 for the novels of the Quickening Trilogy and for Odalisque, if not more slightly skewed in favor of males!  Being a male myself, I am enamored with the work you do.  One reason I have found Odalisque to be so intriguing is that it is a complete departure from the style you featured with the Quickening Trilogy.  I think it takes a very brave writer to let go of something that has become a clear winner for them in terms of creative style and strike out on a new path.  You could very easily have gone the road of the Jordan or Goodkind and churned out the same essential thing book after book after book.

Absolutely true that no writer pleases everyone.  Greats such as Lewis and Tolkien and Howard and Myers and Dunsany have their detractors as well.  I believe though that you don't write for everyone else.  You write for yourself and tell the very best story you can at the time and hope others find a connectivity and want to share that same story.  If you try to write for someone else you will always disappoint.  (as for the incredible dismissal of Raymond Feist's abilities well, that's another blog, I think!  I wouldn't call Magician my favorite from him but it is still wonderful work.)

No action in Odalisque?  I thought there was enough for the opening volley of the trilogy.  Then again, I've never been one who had to have something devastating or pulse-popping occurring every 10 pages.  A slower story is just fine with me as long as the story being told is intriguing enough, or the characters involved are interesting enough to make me keep on....or a nice combination of the two.  At no point in Odalisque did I ever feel bored or bogged down or that it was all leading up to nothing.

I still contend that Odalisque is a strong novel, and a very entertaining one at that, just as I reviewed it to be a few months back.  I continue to endorse it in my local store and continue to order replenishment for what moves off my shelf on a weekly basis.  I also agree with you that the disappointed poster should, in fact, skip all other installments.  I can't think of anything more backhanded or insulting than to state that I greatly disliked someone's work but would buy the upcoming books just because the author wants the sale.  Personally, if you feel that strongly against the story and its quality, I'd rather pay you not to buy them.

In my job as a bookseller and a reviewer, and a full-time father of three, as well as a writer, I don't have a lot of time to spend on things I don't like.  My free time for leisure reading is minimal.  If I find something that is tiresome or just not up to snuff for me, I put it down and move on.  Thus far, I have yet to put down a Fiona McIntosh novel until it was finished.  In my eyes, you're doing just fine.







h

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Slàinte!

 

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I couldn't agree more about the head hopping business. I just couldn't see the problem ... and I don't believe there are rules to writing but still, a few people - readers, reviewers have commented in the past so it's probably easier to satisfy rather than fight it as I establish my credibility internationally. Interestingly I get a more email from male than female readers.

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The female readers are probably too exhausted from all the devastatingly handsom and heroic men! Regarding the head hopping thing, it's one element of writing that was pounded into my head over the years as a big no-no. I learned quickly how to sink deep in to the given POV of the scene and as a result, my writing gained strength. Having said that, I think Fiona's style is strong as it is. I don't usually like books that feature head hoppig because I see it as a broken 'rule' of writing. If I'm not allowed to do it, why should they? But Fiona's books are about the only ones where the head hopping doesn't distract me and I feel it's because it's done in such a manner that you're never confused as to who's head you're in at the time, and frankly, the stories and the characters are such that you just get so carried away, who has time for analysing little things like that? No matter what medium a story is told in, there are always going to be people who like it and those who don't. Kudos to Nathan for actually having logical and well thought out reasons for his opinions, not just "Didn't like it because I didn't." Cheers, Lisa.

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Fiona, I didn't intend to sound condescending. After all, I have never written a best seller, nor even written an entire novel. I was critical, but I suppose I thought I was being well reasoned and constructive at the same time. "Magician" when it was originally published would have had a more positive impact on me than it did when I read it about 5 years ago. After 25 years, what had been a very original and riveting story when first published, has had such an influence on the Fantasy genre that it now seems unfairly cliched and predictable when read for the first time in the 21st century. "Game of Thrones" I absolutely loved. So I'm not a Fantasy hater by any means. I was moved by Odalisque enough to jump straight on this forum and pour out my thoughts, good and bad. I didn't mean to imply that I would be buying Emissary to make you happy, but rather than I would be buying Emissary anyway, which in general is what an Author hopes will happen. I don't have a problem with repetition of plot nuances. I got irritated with some repetition of both plot nuances AND characters. I guess I was trying to see if you had consciously referenced the sources I mentioned in my original post, being "A Storm of Swords", "The Holy Bible" and "The Baroque Cycle" when writing Odalisque. Without liking everything about your work that I have read, I am full of admiration for your achievements as an author. You write fast, you sell well and you seem to genuinely give back to the writing community. So, I'd like you to know that. I wouldn't worry about the so called "rules" of good writing. I noticed that you describe yourself as a writer of trilogies, which seems odd as a label. I wouldn't consider myself a "reader of trilogies", never having thought about it. I suppose there are plenty of people that would make their purchasing decision based on this type of stuff, but for me the characters, the setting, the period, the story are more important. I had no idea there was a term called "Head Hopping". Certainly, it's a strong author that can get into the head of several vibrant characters, and it allows for so much more detail in the story. How can this be a no-no? Many superb stories use this most enjoyable technique. Nate

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Please see above for reason of blacked out text.

Wall of text *promptly dies*

I don't want to get tarred and feathered like Nate, but I'll tell you my honest opinion anyway.

The behemoth of a problem I had with Odalisque was the protagonist Boaz, mainly his impotence and ignobility.

It seems, despite Boaz's kingly or even divine status, he is unable to save his friends from suffering, even if there were negative political consequences to his action of saving his friends, wouldn't they be worth suffering to save the life of a dear friend?


Apparently not.



Sorry you had to suffer such brutal deaths harem princes, it seems Boaz could't muster the energy to save you,


but Boaz had his arm broken, so I guess it balances out, right?


Sorry Kett, it looks like you will have to be the scapegoat and lose your manhood,

you enjoy women Kett? not anymore you won't.

(Kett suffers the least out of Boaz's friends, he doesn't die, he only loses his genitals.)



Sorry Lazar, Boaz couldn't be bothered to overrule Ana's punishment,

how could he have known you might die from being viciously lashed with a whip? 

Sorry Horz, we know your innocent but the Zar has to keep up appearances, y'know?


Jesus Christ! I wouldn't want to be Boaz's friend, I might end up being castrated, whipped then trampled on by elephants, or perhaps maybe an Acme anvil might fall on me from the sky?


I absolutely loved the Trinity books and Torkyn's adventures and I thought Odalisque would follow a similar format to it, but it didn't.


Now I've finished, let me put on my flame-retardent suit.


~Peace and Love~ 

    Arbiter

P.S. It also needs to be raunchier

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*looks around awkwardly*... i like Boaz

oh dear lol

and i think i just posted the smallest and most unneeded message in this topic

Well someone has got to support the boy - I still like you Boaz... even if you let half your friends/family be killed and murdered unfairly... ummm unlucky?!

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well what can I say. I thought odalisque was very good.The first in the trilogy generally introduces you to all the characters and the basic outline of what the series is gearing up for, we know there will be a fight between good and evil in the form of Maliz and the Goddess but it is the twists and turns that happen along the way which make for an interesting story. So far I have read the first book and am part way through the second and have nothing but praise for the story. Pez is the fun part of it to me portraying something that he isn't and then becoming something even more wonderful, the plot is thickening and only by reading on will you find out what it is. I thoroughly enjoy this trilogy keep up the fantastic writing fiona.

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Thank you Happyinoz.....so much. Fx

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I think it's characters like Boaz that make Fiona's books a stand out.

He's basically a good character (we know this from his choice of friends and those he keeps at a distance), but he's been forced to make some appalling decisions.  We even have some sense of why he's been forced to make those decisions, i.e. pressures of his family and job.  Therefore, whist I don't quite like him as a character, I feel sorry for him and am interested to see if he can redeem himself by doing something truly noble.

This complexity of charactersis typical in even Fiona's earlier novels where good characters are not 'purely good'.  Even though he's married, Torkyn lustily chases anything in a skirt (slight exaggeration, but you get my drift ).  But, this character flaw makes him interesting to read about and makes me care about what happens to him.  Even Orlac, as an evil character, has a  background and shows more than one-dimension to his character.

It's this filling out of the background and making the characters 3D rather than 1D that I enoy most in Fiona's writing.  Her exploration of complex human emotions keep the story interesting and provides twists and turns.  It also gives us the opportunity to reflect on issues of morality and humanity, while we're reading a rollickin' good story.

I say keep doing exactly what you're doing, Fiona. 

Mx