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One problem I am encountering, is limiting the power of my characters. A powerful character if not disabled in some way, really has no issues to deal with, so we have to find ways of handicapping them, and making the vulnerable.

I was interested in starting a discussion of how this can be achieved, without looking too staged. I have found in some fantasy books I've read, that the method of limiting the use of the particular power looks a little contrived.

What are some ways we can avoid this?

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Life is a containment field for thought. (A Slatz original.)

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Hear, hear, Cerhis...that's what I mean about using magic sparingly. It is so much more potent for the reader in a small dose rather than it happening all the time or with too many people.

I think Robin Hobb gets it so damn right and that's why her stories linger in your mind. They certainly do in mine but then everyone here knows how much I admire her work so I'll get off the soapbox.

Magic should be subtle - I've learned this and perhaps this is why in my next series magic is barely mentioned. I'm allowing the characters to do all the work with magic more as a backdrop for the story than a character itself.

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Well, in my world, any of the magic users are limited in a few ways. First, the spells themselves are difficult to cast and only a select few can manage the really powerful spells. I like to think of casting magic as an ability that must be honed, but there is also a certain amount of "potential" in each magi. Some will never be able to cast more than a silly cantrip to light candles. Others *could* become extremely powerful, but only with the right tutoring and effort on their part.

So, even my strong magi are limited in this way. They can only draw so much energy from the well, so to speak.

Second, they use a certain amount of their own energy with each casting. They can cast until this is used up and then they're out. They're down to weaker and weaker effects. It's akin to fighting. One can swing a sword for a long time, but eventually, you'll tire. Extremely vicious swipes can be attempted in the beginning, but not when you're nearing exhaustion.

Some writers will make magic cost the magi in other ways. Like a sacrifice sort of scheme. Something must be sacrificed for the spell to be affected. Blood, animals, people, etc. This can make magic more limited.

Another way is to introduce counters to magic. I have null-magi in my book. A null-mage can counter spells, but do little else in the way of magic. This reduces the effectiveness of magi where this character is near. I also use artifacts that resist magic either on that item or in an area. These could be common or not so common, but either way, it can provide a tool to keep magi more human.

One more thought and then I'll stop. You can make the casting itself difficult. Some magi must use components or ingredients to cast the spell. Thus, the must gather these before the magic can be used. Other writers make their characters use symbols, like rune magic; others make them sing or play a melody or deliver a poem that describes the magical effect. These limiters are endless (though they can get a little hokey).

Hope this provides a few things to think about.

Cheers,

Brad.

Edited by: bbeaulieu at: 7/13/02 1:09:26 pm

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In my world magic is limited because it comes from materials in the local area.... therefore not every spell can be used... since it requires the magical energy of certain raw amterials.

Also 2 types of magic in my world... GOD GIVEN... (Not often) and learned... a mage has to learn a spell and then have the required materials at hand to make it work.

Hope that helps
Steve

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Thanks for your feedback guys. You raise some interesting points. I probably didn't phrase the question very well. I was thinking of a situation e.g. like Tor's.

He has the power to save himself in the end of the first book, but events, such as in this case, his word, prevents him from acting.

In Fiona's world sentients are hunted and so remain hidden and untrained. (I also use this premise in my world, although I did this before I started reading Betrayal - honest!).

I find it starts to get difficult to limit God's powers in particular, as the more usual methods of limitation, start to look strained.

David Eddings did a great job with Toorak in the Belgariad and its sequels.

cheers,
Darren.

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Life is a containment field for thought. (A Slatz original.)

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You could certainly do worse than reading and learning from the Master... I am a huge Eddings fan and i consider him second only to papa Tolkien at the top of the fantasy tree... wow thats sticking my head out isn't it?

Jordan, Donaldson et al all pale into insignificane compared to David in my humble opinion. But, the NIT... he has milked the gravy train... (mixed metaphors?) ...

I think you could limit your magic like the will and the word...

It works for Eddings. Also consider witchcraft... Even Aleister Crowley was limited in power (if you believe in that stuff).

The supposed Salem witches etc could not save themselves... maybe you can use that limit?

Your world... you know the rules... go for it.

Can't wait to read you!

Cheers steve

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A thought just occured to me that if you want to also limit your characters, but you dunno how. You could do the almost famous Good Vs. Evil, where when bad guys fight they have some power that weaken the Good guys and Vise Vera.

Basically just let you character evolve and then let you bad guy *Whoever this is* have the same amount of power.... *maybe a little less if you want the good guy to win "> *

*Just an Idea*

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Kryptonite.

The best power limiting agent ever. ">

My kryptonite in the current series is glass. It is readily available to both sides of the conflict and it affects both sides in the same way. However, I'm like Fiona and let the character's own strengths and weaknesses bolster or limit their abilities mainly.

But really, I think any limits are going to grow out of the power itself. It all depends on the type of power you're using. If the power has an internal source, from within the weilder, than the limits are going to be mainly buried within the weilder. If they are harnessing an outside source, say capturing a demon or something, then external limits can be placed on the person.

Just my thoughts.

..............................
it's getting hot in here
so take off all your clothes

Asteroid B-612

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Thanks Fiona and Steve,

Yes Fiona that does help. I have some firmer ideas now on how to develop my "good' characters further.

I have noticed with your evil characters you have "staggered" them. Goth is disgusting and violent, but an ordinary man. Then we have Xantia who I assume will wield the dark arts at some stage and finally Orlac himself. (I'm only at the beginning of Revenge).

I think this is a great strategy to heighten tension as the story grows.

Ah there's so much to think about!!

Thanks very much everyone for your input. I love the internet. How else would I be getting advice direct from a fantastic author?!

cheers,
Darren.

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Life is a containment field for thought. (A Slatz original.)

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Slatz, let your characters themselves be the reason.

With Tor he refuses to use his power to kill and without that premise, the lovely Goth, for example, would have been dead in book one.

You can also limit the power by knowledge or lack of. Tor and in fact most of my enchanted characters in the Trinity trilogy have no idea what their powers are so they must be discovered along the way - that definitely helps in limiting what they can do immediately and helps you to craft the tale at a better pace.

Use magic sparingly - when it occurs, the impact on the reader is potent.

Hope this helps a little?

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A wise and very successful author once told me that the creation of the fiction novel should take on the appearance of a saw (yes, the tool). And each tooth of that saw is a new chapter and with each new chapter you are turning the screws on the tension just a little bit higher so you get this narrow tip (chapter one) building to this much wider wedge by the final chapter.

Does this make sense? I might have to work out how to draw it for you because it was like someone threw open the doors and let blinding light into a dark room for me when he explained it.

This is why you are seeing the gradual build in tension through the three books and especially the baddies, with Orlac staying in the background but his threat getting larger all the time.

Don't forget also - this is an important tip - each chapter should be like a short story in itself with its beginning, middle, end, its gradually increasing tension, its gathering pace and then the relief (conclusion) before the next chapter.

Well, that's this evening's lecture. Sorry about that - got myself all excited!

Goodnight all. ">

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I like each chapter being a short story. I never thought of it like that before - yet now it seems almost obvious. Thnaks very much Fiona "> .

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Life is a containment field for thought. (A Slatz original.)

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Robin Hobb's books are truly magical worlds, yet magic isn't really used to drastically change events all that much, when you think about it. People aren't constantly doing spells, blasting the enemy with mage fire or whatever. Rather they have magical attributes, like skilling or being witted, but you couldn't really call them magicians, could you? Many absolutely fascinating things are only touched upon, which is so tantalizing. A mark of her quality, to me, is that I still mull over those books, once in a while, long since I read them.

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It is a very worthy soapbox, though. Look at Fool's Errand. Fitz really is older and his life really has moved on, never to return to that earlier self. Ah, such bittersweet reading pleasure! How many other fantasy authors could have done that so well. Or even tried very hard to do so? So many authors seem to be pressured or seduced by publishers to churn out more of the same. I do hope you will resist the temptation (stern yet imploring look).

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Well, I'm not planning to continue Trinity if that's what you mean?...can I get some Brownie points

If not, then I'm nervous. I think I'll always write in a similar manner. The stories will always move at full throttle because I cannot craft it any other way. I do not dwell heavily on description or filling in all the details of the world my characters live in. I'm sure I will have to endure criticism as a result but I'm a lover of a story getting you by the throat and not letting go. As a reader I don't want to be sidetracked to learn about some secular group or a particular noble's background or even too much about the culture - I just want to know what's happening with the characters who are important to me - the ones I care about.

I don't for a second, however, believe I'll ever stop learning so perhaps there's hope for me (grin).

Publishers want success, C. You cannot escape this fact and if Robin Hobb didn't sell as well as she does worldwide it wouldn't matter a fig to the publisher that her books are so brilliant. Only dollars count - and I can understand this being in business myself. You have to survive in a tough environment in a really competitive industry. This is why it may feel like publishers are feeding readers more of the same. It's a bit of a vicious circle I reckon. As readers, we are demanding more of the same otherwise why would I have been so disappointed with Otherland by Tad W. I wanted more of Memory, Sorrow, Thorn....just repackaged with different names, places, concepts...but essentially the same sort of thing. It's always wonderful when something surprising and different comes along but it has to sell otherwise - despite it's novelty - it's a dud and destined for pulping (ugh...shudder). I think Sara D has it right. She seems to effortlessly move into new areas but dragging her legion of fans with her because she has never lost sight of the fact that they still want a fast paced, exciting story with some magic, some brutality, characters to love and hate. You know the recipe.

The great thing about Robin is that she has the winning formula whilst not compromising that beautiful way she has with her craft. She has a rare ability to find new ways to spin the tried and true making it all feel so original and fresh.

And she's a totally lovely person to boot.

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Talking of magic, even the greatest stories, let's look at King Arthur,

Merlin et al... do get involved, but their magic isn't always overt and not earth shattering, except in its implications...

its not all the war magic we read, where an army is decimated in a wave of the hand, but much more subtle...

If its good enough for the story tellers of the past, it's good enough for me.

That's also the problem for RPG's everyone has magic... most NPC"s have more magic rings than the entire history of middle-earth...

We all love fantasy, but with a realistic balance, it also ahs to fit the world that has been created.

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For Terroma, and all the Lockrasts, magic is in the blood. It's a family line, as they are all descended from the first Lockrast, who died and all true knowledge with her.

As for (unknown name) She is a Silkrast, the opposite to a Lockrast (lockrast-evil silkrast-good) They are protectors of the peace so to speak. They hardly ever use it, but they all have the knowledge if there is ever a need, they can use it.

Not too bad for making it up then eh? Actually, I had an Idea for Terroma already, but this post has helped me devolp the idea. Woo Hoo!!!

Satine

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You could always look at limiting magic by the possible effects should the spell not be cast right. If you have someone who is really powerful, not only does their skill level have to be high but the repercussions would be greater too. I mean if you throw a minor cantrip for example and get it wrong you may only end up with a headache for a while and not be able to perform any spells whereas can you imagine getting a fireball wrong.

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And of course there's the question of where the magic comes from. I think considering that is really important. If it comes from the wielder, then it should be limited by the person's own strength; just as not even the strongest person can lift heavy loads all day, wielders of magic should tire and have their limits.
If it comes from outside the wielder, there would probably be limits too; the pool of magic in the immediate area, how much the wielder can channel etc.

And in that book 'Ash' (forgotten the author), there's magic, and there's a type of 'anti-magic', which prevents miracles from occurring. I found that an interesting idea too.

Interesting topic- you have such interesting discussions here">