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I'm quite new to this BB, with only a few posts made since last week. I haven't read this entire thread, but what I've read so far just prompts me to tell you about some of my own experiences in writing. In the threads on writing, I've read words like "outlining", "plot", "characters", but what really made me think on what I'm about to tell you is "writer's block".

For the past year or so, I've been a user of Sara Douglass's BB, another fantastic Australian author. Some of you might even be dwellers on this BB. If so, you'll know that one of the things Sara hates most, is the combination of the words 'writer' and 'block', hence my renaming it "Shriner's Smock". To Sara, this doesn't exist. There was a time when I would have totally disagreed with her. But not today. I agree, Shriner's Smock does not exist, at least in the extent some people think of it. Total blank, incapacity to think of anything to write, imagination on strike... I don't think so! Why? Here's why:

A few years ago, I took a hobby with a friend of mine so we would have some activity to do together other than movies, endless nights of Monopoly, etc. We chose to do clay modeling - or sculpting, as it is referred to among the community. The first thing I ever sculpted was the bust of an Egyptian princess. Well, she looked like an Egyptian, so I sculpted the hairstyle and added some jewelry that would make this obvious. It wasn't the most marvelous sculpture of the year, but for a first-timer, it was outstanding! Anyhow, after a few sculptures and two or three years of practice, I developed a certain affinity with the human face: this is what I like to sculpt most. Sometimes, it will only be a part of the face, the shadow of a smile, the corner of an eye. And in the end, I always get a nice and interesting sculpture to which people can relate because there's an element they are familiar with in it.

I have a few friends with whom I've formed a select group and we meet weekly, during the cold Canadian days of winter, to create beautiful pieces out of the clay. It's always fun to observe how some of them will start sculpting. Some are simply intimidated by the block, or brick, of clay. My goodness! Do we have sculptor's block (yes, the pun is intended)??? Not for me. Never.

My brick of clay is the white virtual sheet of paper that you see when you start Word, or any other word processing program you happen to use for writing. And the face that appears under my fingers as I carve, slash and model the clay is the character I'm writing about. Fiona said it right: character IS plot!

There are different ways to start writing a story or novel. Sara Douglass suggests drawing a map. With a map, you have location, setting. From there, a society soon emerges, and with society comes history, religion, politics, etc. In less than an hour, I usually have the greater contours of a world. Then, it's easier for me to imagine what type of persons would live there. Are they peasants, of royal blood, a dishonored knight, maybe? Dishonored? Why? How?

Characters ARE plot. They have emotions, ambitions, grievances, secrets. Picture them in your head, and soon, a story will emerge.

I get carried away in writing my characters. You might say that they take over, and in a sense, that's true. A problem I'm facing right at this moment is that I have these wonderfully devious characters that have become so fascinating I have neglected my main character. And without her, the story, the major plot line, wouldn't exist. Got to get back to her, because I realize now that I hadn't developed her enough... all I can see of her in the clay is half of her face. I'll have to let out the other half, and let her speak to me.

Anyhow, that's how I start a story. I draft a character, because I find human nature fascinating. The story is never far behind.

That's what works for me...

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(grin) don't mean to tease....

I don't usually re-write but I don't want anyone out there using me as a good role model. I don't plan anything either which for some is just plain scary. Yes this is first draft and although I'll read it through to check spellling, grammar, tense, etc, I don't re work chunks. I am under the hammer to get this book finished in about 10 days so there will be no time to let it sit and get comfortable.

As for Wyl, he cannot reflect or dwell on the past. When you learn what's happened to him you'll understand why he has absolutely no choice but to go forward and in this instance he is, without knowing it, making a choice of saving one or another's life.

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I agree with you, Blue! In my case, when I trash a sculpture, I take the hammer in it! Not only is this liberating, it's also the perfect way to vent all your frustrations!

Fiona: I wouldn't trash the Trinity if I were you... ">

To further this discussion, I think that a writer who won't accept to change their manuscript has no business being a writer. The book you write cannot be treated as your baby... because in the end, it's a baby that will be missing an arm, a leg and half of the other. And all for the better! I have this great opportunity to discuss my work with a bunch of published sci/fi writers and editors of a renowed publishing house in the US, and when I told my mum about it, the first thing she asked was: "but what if they don't like your work? What a disappointment!" Not at all! I will at least have their opinion on it, and hopefully, hints on how to improve my writing in the future. If they don't like it, they will tell me why they don't like it. That's the beauty of it. (gee... I love these jumping buggers!) ">

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Lisa

Yes, they did... Belgariad is full of @#%$... just that they don't make a fuss when they do... and take it light heartedly...

I admit... Loved Belgariad... also Belgariad ii (the Mallorean)... same story really... how did he get away with that?

Love Eddings...when I grow up i want to be like him, or Baldrick or Al Bundy... not sure yet.

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My vote is for Baldrick. Nobody has as many cunning plans as Baldrick.

I love the Eddings' (except Althalus which was terrible) even though they write the same story over and over, just change the names and places. You know what they say "when you're on a good thing ....".

Edings is another author who believes you should'nt read in the genre you write in. Perhaps if he did read some other fantasy he might get some new ideas.

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Big Hills, can you read minds?? You've got my sentiments exactly about Eddings' ideas about reading within the genre perfectly. Also thought Athalus was terrible, well, what I manged to read of it before putting it down and never picking it up again.

Don't get me wrong, I love Eddings. His books, the Belgariad, are what got me hooked (line and sinker) on fantasy in the first place. He will always have pride of place on my shelves. However, his is a style I seem to have grown past, I think. He admits that he writes more epic-romancy type things, like the Arthurian tales.

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"the universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference - Richard Dawkins
Asteroid B-612

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Great story, Manon. A couple of years ago, me and a friend had the same idea, to take up a hobby that wasn't movies or going out to dinner. We started ceramics. It was fun but we eventually gave it up because it got too expensive.

I don't think I've ever really suffered writer's block. Writer's apathy maybe, but not block. There will be times when I just can't be bothered, but eventually the characters rolling around in my head get too noisy and I have to let them out or go insane. And it's always the characters that prompt me back to it, not the desire to tell a story, but the desire to tell the story about those characters. And as has been said many times already, when the characters take over the story writting and you just seem to be there for ride, that when it really seems to be working.

The story I'm currently working on was developed from a dream I had. As soon as I woke up from that dream, it didn't vanish or fade, as they usualy do, it stayed clear and within about ten minutes I had a complete story in my head. And would you believe it, but the strongest feeling I got from the dream was that one of the characters was Whoopy Goldberg? So, I fashioned that character to look like Whoopy and as soon as I had her, everyone else fell into place.

..............................
"the universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference - Richard Dawkins
Asteroid B-612

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That's great, Lisa. My story, also, started with a dream - but now it's nothing like it. It's taken so many twists and turns, and I know it will take some more before it gets to the end. I have so much fun writing it! ">

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No block to date but often waiting for one of the characters to do something unpredictable which will push the story on...like right now. I should be writing but I'm waiting for Wyl to make a decision.. He's undecided - should he go straight to Briavel or should he backtrack to the monastery at Rittylworth? Either will make a big difference.

And so I play at the Board whilst he decides.

Ho hum.

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Is Wyl the kind of person who often looks in the past? Or does he prefer not to linger on past experiences and move forward? Why not writing both scenes and see what works best?

Is this your first draft, Fiona? What's the next step after that? Are you going to send it right away to the publisher, or will you rewrite it?

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Fiona

Wyl's indecision matched your own mood... that will come across to the reader.

Also most writers re-write... so Fiona is not a good example, you are a bad girl.

Wish i did not have to re-write

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Yes. Rewriting is always good for the work. If you have the luxury of leaving an ms for say, three months, and going back to it , you will change heaps and it will be all the better for it. That's probably why I'm aiming to get ahead and always have one ms up my sleeve so whilst one's at the publisher being edited, another is curing quietly.

Ah, bliss!

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I'm a staunch believer in the Fiona Rule #1. Just write. And I used to be a staunch critic about rewrites too... but I have to say that in recent months that idea has changed. Ever since I got that assessment back, my mind has been boiling over a serious rewrite of that story. Nothing overt, but bringing forth a few new ideas and redefining a few areas. I'm also rewritting the begining of the story I'm working on now.

I don't know how I will go with rewrites in the future... but for now, 'tis a good thing. ">

..............................
"the universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference - Richard Dawkins
Asteroid B-612

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Oh, and by the way Fiona, it's not nice to tease us like this, when we poor fans will have to wait over a year to read this new tale of yours! ">

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These editor people seem to have a big role in getting books shipshape and Bristol fashion. Are they people who could otherwise be writing their own novels, or is it a different type of skill from the author's?

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Lisa.

Iam very lazy person, and hate re-work... I am from an engineering background, so re-work is abad things, you know the kind of maxims, GET IT RIGHT FIRST TIME...

But, I know rewrites are essential for most writer's

I am going to find it tough to do it... I am going to hate it in fact, but I know i have to do it.

And i will take encouragement from you, if you can bite the bullet, I wil follow your example and rewrite rewrite, revise, rewrite.. until it's complete.

Loved your short story by the way.

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Just remember that when you get involved with a publisher and are given your own editor, that's when the hard work is just beginning on your book. Writing the novel is easy by comparison!

The work which goes into the ms through the editing process is enormous and you will go through that novel so many times you will be sick of it. So weary in fact that by the time the book is plonked in your hand, you plonk it straight onto the bookcase and never actually read it.

Lots and lots of reworking through the editing process which has several tedious but very necessary and excrutiatingly valuable stages. But each time you do it, you get smarter for the next time.

I almost never use the word almost now ( ) which was one of my editing challenges. Now I almost never write it in order to stop myself having to track it down and blitz it.

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Which brings up an interesting question...

Once that book is published and looking rather resplendent in its lovely cover art... how many authors would then go and reread it?

..............................
"the universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference - Richard Dawkins
Asteroid B-612

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Cerhis

I am studying Editing at Tafe (college) and my lecturer could not write anovel to save her life... but her attention to detail and grasp of grammar etc etc is superb...

I think it is a different skill set... but some editors are also good writers.

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Manon- enjoyed what you had to say on writing and I think I agree that your definition of 'writer's block' does not exist, or should not exist. I hate the term because naming it makes it real, adjusts the focus to the problem not the solution. You ever notice little kids don't have writer's block or trouble with bits of clay? They haven't created the problem for themselves yet.

I also like your parallels with writing and art. I took this cool painting class and one of the things the guy taught us was to not get so attatched to our work. I think this falls into your 'intimidation' comment. Not only can we be afraid to begin, but also afraid at some point to wreck what we've put so much work into. On day two of our class the instructor had us pick our favorite painting. We then had to rip it up and use the parts for a collage. It was great. We had people who had only ever dabbled with itty bitty water color brushes at perfect paintings, smearing gobs of acrylics on messy torn paper and creating art they never dreamed they could come up with.

I guess my point is, I find when I get stuck in my writing (which I have but do less of now that I have come to this realization) that I am not being creative anymore but pissing along with a teeny brush too afraid to make a mess. So I either go make a mess somewhere else, or return when I'm feeling brave enough to dive back in with gusto. But- I can say that now that I've learned the block is in my head and not real, it doesn't occur. Its something totally different and tolerable.

A naked American man stole my balloons...