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When to begin a novel
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Last Online: 26th Sep 2002 21:35:00
Registered: 15th May 2004 00:00:00
A novel is a huge undertaking, and obviously needs some sort of outline- whether it is through organizing lots of notes, or just having the basic idea in your head.
How much do you need, and how much is too much?
What do you think the most important point(s) are in outlining, at least for you?
I do think you need to define the story in one good sentance.
You need a good idea of each main character's past up to present, and what their main strength and weakness is. Especially in the very main hero and the main villain.
You need a basic opening, a low point where the main character's weakness is at its worst, then the climactic ending where their strength perserveres.
With fantasy you also need a some sort of faith/religion or culteral belief or say, the way magic works there.
Just through what little experience I have so far, I am learning that little subplots open up as you go, to not worry about them. I got to the part in my story where a main character's uncle is introduced, and he came alive right there. It hasn't happened that easily with other subplots, but it made me realize how much can happen if you relax and let it. So in that respect I try not to nail down every single point in my outline.
BUT- sometimes a plot angle I hadn't anticipated effects the entire plot so greatly, it throws off the whole outline.
Does this get easier with experience, or was my outline too thin to start with, or too detailed to accept change? I guess I wonder if its common that outlining can be very frustrating for other people?
I have not yet begun to procrastinate!
How much do you need, and how much is too much?
What do you think the most important point(s) are in outlining, at least for you?
I do think you need to define the story in one good sentance.
You need a good idea of each main character's past up to present, and what their main strength and weakness is. Especially in the very main hero and the main villain.
You need a basic opening, a low point where the main character's weakness is at its worst, then the climactic ending where their strength perserveres.
With fantasy you also need a some sort of faith/religion or culteral belief or say, the way magic works there.
Just through what little experience I have so far, I am learning that little subplots open up as you go, to not worry about them. I got to the part in my story where a main character's uncle is introduced, and he came alive right there. It hasn't happened that easily with other subplots, but it made me realize how much can happen if you relax and let it. So in that respect I try not to nail down every single point in my outline.
BUT- sometimes a plot angle I hadn't anticipated effects the entire plot so greatly, it throws off the whole outline.
Does this get easier with experience, or was my outline too thin to start with, or too detailed to accept change? I guess I wonder if its common that outlining can be very frustrating for other people?
I have not yet begun to procrastinate!
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Last Online: 7th Mar 2002 23:14:00
Registered: 15th May 2004 00:00:00
First off, I think this is a purely personal thing. It is not like having to learn a set routine in order to do it right. I believe that writing style/proccess is just something that you creat for yourself, and the only way to learn what YOUR personal style is, is to just do it. It will come naturally to you.
For me, I simply get a basic idea for a story and just start writing. I don't even really map out main characters all that much before I begin. I find that once I have that first scene where the main characters are introduced, their personality, strengths, weaknesses, history, future and present all materialize for me. From there, I will have a basic idea of an ending and how to get there, but it is by no means a solid, set path.
I am learning that little subplots open up as you go, to not worry about them....but it made me realize how much can happen if you relax and let it
This is basically what I do. I just write and as unexpected things happen, I find that they either fit into the overall plot and make it richer, or the plot changes due to them and that change is, invariably, for the better.
For example, in writing one passage in one book, I ended up with one of the secondary characters finding a homeless child. I had simply needed a small distraction so that character wouldn't witness an event he was susposed to be watching and having this child come along seemed the easiest way to distract him. That unexpected child went on to hold an important place in the story of that book and has grown into one of the most significant features of the rest of the series.
I called my style of writting 'passive' in another discussion about it a while back. Passive in that it just seems to happen. On the other hand, doing an extensive outline first and keeping to it more or less would be 'active'. That's how I see it anyway, and I don't think one is better than the other.
I have tried to write 'actively' on a couple of ideas, but I just couldn't make myself do it. On one, I tried to write down a brief outline of the plot but I couldn't do it. In not being able to write down the outline I thought I wouldn't be able to get the story written, but I gave up on the outline and just started writing. It seems to be coming along nicely now.
BUT- sometimes a plot angle I hadn't anticipated effects the entire plot so greatly, it throws off the whole outline.
Does this get easier with experience, or was my outline too thin to start with, or too detailed to accept change?
My thoughts on this are 'NO! Your outline wasn't too thin, nor too detailed.' It is simply your outline. The unexpected plot angle had to come from somewhere, and that somewhere was a combination of what you had written previously and you. You wrote it as an obvious extension of what had come before, there must have been a reason for it, it can't have just happen with no previous lead up. If it was me, I would leave it and work the rest of the plot around it, but that might not be for you. Otherwise, go back over what generated the sudden change and see where it happened, how it happened and if you think you need to, write it again, this time missing the unexpected twist and follow your outline and then compare the two.
edit- forgot no html in here....
Asteroid B-612 Edited by: Abadarse 
at: 1/20/02 10:13:08 am
For me, I simply get a basic idea for a story and just start writing. I don't even really map out main characters all that much before I begin. I find that once I have that first scene where the main characters are introduced, their personality, strengths, weaknesses, history, future and present all materialize for me. From there, I will have a basic idea of an ending and how to get there, but it is by no means a solid, set path.
I am learning that little subplots open up as you go, to not worry about them....but it made me realize how much can happen if you relax and let it
This is basically what I do. I just write and as unexpected things happen, I find that they either fit into the overall plot and make it richer, or the plot changes due to them and that change is, invariably, for the better.
For example, in writing one passage in one book, I ended up with one of the secondary characters finding a homeless child. I had simply needed a small distraction so that character wouldn't witness an event he was susposed to be watching and having this child come along seemed the easiest way to distract him. That unexpected child went on to hold an important place in the story of that book and has grown into one of the most significant features of the rest of the series.
I called my style of writting 'passive' in another discussion about it a while back. Passive in that it just seems to happen. On the other hand, doing an extensive outline first and keeping to it more or less would be 'active'. That's how I see it anyway, and I don't think one is better than the other.
I have tried to write 'actively' on a couple of ideas, but I just couldn't make myself do it. On one, I tried to write down a brief outline of the plot but I couldn't do it. In not being able to write down the outline I thought I wouldn't be able to get the story written, but I gave up on the outline and just started writing. It seems to be coming along nicely now.
BUT- sometimes a plot angle I hadn't anticipated effects the entire plot so greatly, it throws off the whole outline.
Does this get easier with experience, or was my outline too thin to start with, or too detailed to accept change?
My thoughts on this are 'NO! Your outline wasn't too thin, nor too detailed.' It is simply your outline. The unexpected plot angle had to come from somewhere, and that somewhere was a combination of what you had written previously and you. You wrote it as an obvious extension of what had come before, there must have been a reason for it, it can't have just happen with no previous lead up. If it was me, I would leave it and work the rest of the plot around it, but that might not be for you. Otherwise, go back over what generated the sudden change and see where it happened, how it happened and if you think you need to, write it again, this time missing the unexpected twist and follow your outline and then compare the two.
edit- forgot no html in here....
at: 1/20/02 10:13:08 am#3 - 20th Jan 2002 08:00:00
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Firstly let me say there is no right way to write. I might have already mentioned this to Lisa this but I've learned that there are two styles of writers. One is to be thoroughly organised with a really well thought out synopsis as well as plans for characters and ideas for plot. The other category which I'm afraid to say I fall resoundingly into is to have absolutely no plan at all. I just write. I have 18,000 words left to write of book 3 with no idea what i will write tonight or what will happen. I have learned now to trust myself. Relax and let it unfold. I cannot become the other sort of writer. I know people who write out full studies on their characters almost working out an entire childhood and so on for them. I did nothing. All I knew about Tor when I began writing him was he had dark hair, very blue eyes and was exceptionally tall. I had no background for him and I didn't even know he was who he is (grin) until halfway through book 2. When Kyt Cyrus disappears into the Heartwood to meet Darmud Coril I had no further plan for him except I trusted myself to find one down the track because he was too enjoyable a character to leave alone. I don't spend hours thinking about my story either. If I'm out walking, I'm not plotting, but I am clearing my head and dealing with the day's thoughts so that when I do sit down that night, there are no issues to cloud my head and then Betrayal or Revenge or book three can flow. I'm not saying everyone should or could work this way but I am trying to reassure you that your style is very you, very natural and you should not spook yourself that there is anything wrong in not having a plan. Harpercollins asked me for a synopsis of the books - I did it but none of it has really happened that bears much connection. Some people need to write that outline to reassure themselves about the true thread of the story and that's fine. Subplots do happen. You are going to meet a character in Revenge who just arrived one day. I have no idea where he came from and even rang my editor to complain about it because he was taking over my book. What can you do? Nothing. Go with it. That's why you are a creative person and always trust your instincts. The reason I haven't killed off Goth is because it's just not happening in my head yet. All of this BB is to tell you to just trust yourself, as Lisa has as well. Only you can tell your story.
When is a good time to write it? NOW! I procrastinated for 10 years on Betrayal and regret I didn't start it sooner. Get it out of your head and into a computer no matter how rough it is. Then you can go back and flesh out chapters and no doubt improve all of it. JUST DON'T WAIT OR THE THE RIGHT TIME WILL NEVER ARRIVE.
When is a good time to write it? NOW! I procrastinated for 10 years on Betrayal and regret I didn't start it sooner. Get it out of your head and into a computer no matter how rough it is. Then you can go back and flesh out chapters and no doubt improve all of it. JUST DON'T WAIT OR THE THE RIGHT TIME WILL NEVER ARRIVE.
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Last Online: 26th Sep 2002 21:35:00
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Wow! See this is how I would hope this forum could work. You gave me some input I had not ever considered because often I get caught up in my own way of doing things (mostly because I am not exposed to other writers) and forget alternative routes.
It has not ever dawned on me to use the passive style. I think it is very 'un' me, but could very likely be an approach to stir things up for me creatively. You made me think about trying something I had not considered. Thanks!
this is cool
I have not yet begun to procrastinate!
It has not ever dawned on me to use the passive style. I think it is very 'un' me, but could very likely be an approach to stir things up for me creatively. You made me think about trying something I had not considered. Thanks!
this is cool
I have not yet begun to procrastinate!
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Last Online: 7th Mar 2002 23:14:00
Registered: 15th May 2004 00:00:00
My pleasure! 
">
One thing I meant to ask you in the other post (but carried away and forgot about) was how to sum up a story in one sentence. I'm having serious trouble writing a synopsis for one book and keeping it a reasonable length!!
btw, I read the synopsis for your story on your page and loved it. Had to laugh at one thing though. My boss's name just happens to be the same as your villain's.... Very appropriate I thought. My boss is something of an evil elf.Asteroid B-612
"> One thing I meant to ask you in the other post (but carried away and forgot about) was how to sum up a story in one sentence. I'm having serious trouble writing a synopsis for one book and keeping it a reasonable length!!
btw, I read the synopsis for your story on your page and loved it. Had to laugh at one thing though. My boss's name just happens to be the same as your villain's.... Very appropriate I thought. My boss is something of an evil elf.
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Last Online: 26th Sep 2002 21:35:00
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Abadarse, you might not have to sum things up in one sentance. I do, for me. Stories I come up with tend to have to have some bit of message, therefore I sum it up so that I stay focused on that message. It has to do with outlining I guess.
(the villain's name is the only name I borrowed from a real person I know!)
Fiona, I understand the importance of writing one's own way. I am interested in other people's process so as to get out of grooves I may have worn so deep I can't see out of. I think I'll always be the outline type, but maybe not as strict all the time.
Funny you mention going for walks. I have a hard time not thinking about the plot if I go for a walk. And it baffles me that you all can write cold turkey like that. I have to have a set character. I mean I even know what's in his or her pockets!
I have not yet begun to procrastinate!
(the villain's name is the only name I borrowed from a real person I know!)
Fiona, I understand the importance of writing one's own way. I am interested in other people's process so as to get out of grooves I may have worn so deep I can't see out of. I think I'll always be the outline type, but maybe not as strict all the time.
Funny you mention going for walks. I have a hard time not thinking about the plot if I go for a walk. And it baffles me that you all can write cold turkey like that. I have to have a set character. I mean I even know what's in his or her pockets!
I have not yet begun to procrastinate!
#7 - 21st Jan 2002 18:46:00
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Well I would give my left you know what to know that much about my characters (grin). I don't even know what's going to come out of each one's mouth until my fingers just rattle it off on the keys. It is a frightening way to write I sometimes think but I've got used to it and it does provide absolute freedom because my mind is free of all plot constraints and the people in it drive the tale. There's a line every writer will chant to themselves over and again....
"character is plot". When I learned it, I took it to heart and somehow just trust my characters to come up with all these strange and wonderful ideas themselves. However, I really would love to be able to think scenes through and not get that jittery feeling when I know I'm facing a critical juncture or chapter.
"character is plot". When I learned it, I took it to heart and somehow just trust my characters to come up with all these strange and wonderful ideas themselves. However, I really would love to be able to think scenes through and not get that jittery feeling when I know I'm facing a critical juncture or chapter.
#8 - 30th Jan 2002 17:49:00
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Good for you BB. I think you're extremely fortunate that you have your characters so well rounded in your mind. This probably means you understand them so very well and when one of those odd things just comes out of left field and happens - as it will, I promise - then you'll know how each of those special people you've created will deal with it. I'm not saying planning isn't the way to go but if you already feel that sense of freedom to let your people drive that tale, do it, because it will work.
I have to quietly smile to myself sometimes because my lovely editor and even my two draft readers talk about the characters in Trinity as very real people, whom they all seem to know and deeply understand.
Nicola (editor) will say, no Fiona, Goth just wouldn't say that - it's just not like him.
So don't be shy to let your characters evolve into how they want and they'll begin to show some human traits that your readers will respond towards and recognise.
It must feel fantastic to be making such progress. Keep us posted.
I have to quietly smile to myself sometimes because my lovely editor and even my two draft readers talk about the characters in Trinity as very real people, whom they all seem to know and deeply understand.
Nicola (editor) will say, no Fiona, Goth just wouldn't say that - it's just not like him.
So don't be shy to let your characters evolve into how they want and they'll begin to show some human traits that your readers will respond towards and recognise.
It must feel fantastic to be making such progress. Keep us posted.
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well i'd like to say thank you.
somewhere in my life (probably all those years of private school pounding it into my head) i got the impression one should not write something without a well formatted outline. i don't know why i decided this had to be, because lord knows in school i fought it much of the time and whipped up an outline in the end because it was required to hand one in.
the odd thing now is, the really good stuff i write is what comes up within the story that's not in the outline, so dumb me should have opened my eyes a bit more.
anywho- i am having a little burning ceremony in my backyard today, and in will go all my outlining, character plotting, world building and miscelanious notes. i have loads and since i have put them aside these past few days my writing has been much less anal.
so thanks
i have a basic premise to the story in my head still, but have let go of exact outcomes that i had intended. it feels right, and it makes much more sense to let the characters lead the way just like in real life. i can walk out the door and know i am going to the store, but what happens along the way won't show till it happens. i am sticking with the well developed characters in my head but with the notes tossed away they are much more exciting and unpredictable. i may know what is in their pocket but i have no idea what they will do with it.
I have not yet begun to procrastinate!
somewhere in my life (probably all those years of private school pounding it into my head) i got the impression one should not write something without a well formatted outline. i don't know why i decided this had to be, because lord knows in school i fought it much of the time and whipped up an outline in the end because it was required to hand one in.
the odd thing now is, the really good stuff i write is what comes up within the story that's not in the outline, so dumb me should have opened my eyes a bit more.
anywho- i am having a little burning ceremony in my backyard today, and in will go all my outlining, character plotting, world building and miscelanious notes. i have loads and since i have put them aside these past few days my writing has been much less anal.
so thanks
i have a basic premise to the story in my head still, but have let go of exact outcomes that i had intended. it feels right, and it makes much more sense to let the characters lead the way just like in real life. i can walk out the door and know i am going to the store, but what happens along the way won't show till it happens. i am sticking with the well developed characters in my head but with the notes tossed away they are much more exciting and unpredictable. i may know what is in their pocket but i have no idea what they will do with it.
I have not yet begun to procrastinate!
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SO glad to read your comments onthis thread Fiona. I write pretty much without a plan or perhasp start to think of things just before I sit down - the shower seems to be a creative place for me for some reason.
I am trying to write a novel at the moment, and I've been a bit worried I have no idea what's going on! The characters have totally taken over, but I hope by following them I'll have a beginning , middle and end of a story.
Still I'm usually ok at beginnings. It's the middle and end I'm yet to reach!
I am trying to write a novel at the moment, and I've been a bit worried I have no idea what's going on! The characters have totally taken over, but I hope by following them I'll have a beginning , middle and end of a story.
Still I'm usually ok at beginnings. It's the middle and end I'm yet to reach!
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Hi Slatz,
Just thought I'd throw a few pennies in as well. I fall right in between Fiona and BB. I outline the entire book rather loosely. To me, the most important things at this point are to have the major plotpoints planned out. I want the three major conflicts more or less known by the time the outline is done. These act as buoys as I write. I know I'm going to wander when I'm between them, but I can always look around and say, Ah, there it is. I've got to bring this story around a bit.
Now, that's not to say that the buoys won't move, because they might. But they're usually *near* the spot they started in.
I also give rough descriptions of the world, the characters, some setting, some political background. Not much, but enough to again act as signposts along the road.
Then, I start writing. I follow Fiona's pattern of letting the characters have their run. Sometimes, new characters will show up and steal the show. Other times, it goes nearly as planned. I try to keep my mind very open to new ideas that the characters are whispering in my ear. But also, be true to the story. Sometimes the characters whisper things that are utter crap, and I tell them to shut up.
If you write any short fiction. You might try an experiment. Outline one and don't outline another. See which technique you like better. It's worth a few tries just to see if you glom on to either technique.
Brad.
Just thought I'd throw a few pennies in as well. I fall right in between Fiona and BB. I outline the entire book rather loosely. To me, the most important things at this point are to have the major plotpoints planned out. I want the three major conflicts more or less known by the time the outline is done. These act as buoys as I write. I know I'm going to wander when I'm between them, but I can always look around and say, Ah, there it is. I've got to bring this story around a bit.
Now, that's not to say that the buoys won't move, because they might. But they're usually *near* the spot they started in.
I also give rough descriptions of the world, the characters, some setting, some political background. Not much, but enough to again act as signposts along the road.
Then, I start writing. I follow Fiona's pattern of letting the characters have their run. Sometimes, new characters will show up and steal the show. Other times, it goes nearly as planned. I try to keep my mind very open to new ideas that the characters are whispering in my ear. But also, be true to the story. Sometimes the characters whisper things that are utter crap, and I tell them to shut up.
If you write any short fiction. You might try an experiment. Outline one and don't outline another. See which technique you like better. It's worth a few tries just to see if you glom on to either technique.
Brad.
#12 - 13th Jul 2002 14:03:00
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You see how we're all so different when we write - it has to happen in your own natural style.
However, let me say this, when your characters take over, that is when you are close to heaven in writing. It means your voice has faded and all control has been given up to the people in your tale.
Never, ever forget:
CHARACTER IS PLOT!
Good luck all, it sounds like we have some very committed talent at this board.
However, let me say this, when your characters take over, that is when you are close to heaven in writing. It means your voice has faded and all control has been given up to the people in your tale.
Never, ever forget:
CHARACTER IS PLOT!
Good luck all, it sounds like we have some very committed talent at this board.
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