Post: Reply | Quote

EbonySwanne posed this query: I have a question for anyone who might have some ideas; How long should a chapter be? Do you divide it up as you go, or wait until you read over it again?? Hello again Ebony. As I said this is a very good questions because it's something we all come up against as writers. I remember wondering the same thing myself when I was first attempting Betrayal. I solved it - and this is only my way - by going on instinct and letting the chapter end when it felt right. Now that's not much help to you is it but then your question is the how long is a piece of string kind of query. So here's a better way to tackle it. Popular fiction - no matter which genre - tends to have certain elements in common. And one of those elements is brisk pacing. If you want lots and lots of people to pick up your book one of the features that will appeal is the word spreads that your book is pretty hard to put down. Now, how do we achieve that 'unputdownable" quality? A successful writer of popular fiction usually does so through how he/she bolts together the tale and that bolting is done through chapters and how they link. One of the tricks of achieving "I couldn't put it down" is to leave your readers on a mini cliffhanger at the end of each chapter. I could draw you a model as to how this would appear visually. But essentially it's an escalating line and that line represents the story's tension constantly being increased. If you end a chapter on something exciting such as a question that is about to be answered, a great secret about to be revealed, someone's identity about to be exposed, a character left screaming, and so on...you get my drift, then it's going to be pretty hard for the reader not to say "just one more chapter." And if you keep finding ways to turn the key on the tension that they're going to keep reading. So that's one way to approach it. The other is to find your level. Curiously enough I find that whenever I end a chapter and I do a word count, it's usually somewhere between 3500-4000 words. For me, this is the ideal length and subconsciously I think it's because that's a good day's writing. But usually in that size I can tackle a big scene with plenty of intrigue, or series of scenes quite comfortably. Now it does fluctuate - I can go up to 5500 or I can be as low as 2500 but in the main my chapters tend to even out at 3500-4000 words and because I've now written quite a few novels, that's my rhythm and it comes naturally. The same will likely occur for you. If you can combine both i.e. cliffhanger and roughly the same size per chapter then you've nailed it! I'm sure the others have their tricks and quirks...and will share. Cheers, F

Post: Reply | Quote

It's an excellent question, Ebonyswanne and thanks for giving us your advice, Fiona.

How big a chapter should be is something I've been struggling with and have avoided by putting in lots of breaks.  It was something I was going to worry about at the editing stage and figured I have enough breaks to be able to insert chapters at approporiate cliffhanger moments.  As a reader I like lots of breaks so that I can put the book down to go to the loo, go to work, go to sleep, eat something, etc.  So, that's how I've written. I've generally found Fiona's books have a pace that suits me as a reader, but there are many books that I've felt don't have enough breaks in them.

Pretty ordinary writing week, I'm afraid - about 500 words.  No real excuses *sighs*.

Md x

 

Post: Reply | Quote

I did ask the ulitmate question...How long is a piece of string didn't I! LOL or whats the answer to life the universe and everything...(I know 42...)

Thanks Fiona I was writing in a chapter today and I suddenly wondered if it was to long. Generally 4000 words, well my story is 16,000 words and I have two complete chapters,(I only started it 10 days ago, but its slowly coming together,) I may need to revise that when I go back over the story when the first draft is finished.I have a long way to go, but  I'm really enjoying the writing the story... its like I can't wait to write more of it each day.

Is that what motivated you to start writing? I'm in my late thirties, so at first I thought it was a strange time in my life to take up something like this...

-------

"I don't have your eyes...but I have your way of looking at things..."

Post: Reply | Quote

You come to writing when you're ready. Some of us start scribbling from an early age. You and me Eb, we arrived in our late thirties. I probably played with the idea of a manuscript when I was around 37 but I didn't take it seriously and certainly didn't craft my first manuscript that I was serious about until I was 40. There is no perfect time although I do wish I'd begun earlier but then I wouldn't have had the stories in my head probably or the life experiences to draw upon or the confidence to have a go. Everyone's different. I was living such a different lifestyle before I started writing full time and it was a busy, rewarding, lucrative one and so a lot of people were scratching their head over me turning my back on it and wanting to be a writer. I can't remember what your question was! Damn! It's so annoying not having a copy. Hang on.

Post: Reply | Quote

Ah yes, you asked: I'm really enjoying the writing the story... its like I can't wait to write more of it each day. Is that what motivated you to start writing? I was motivated to start writing because I loved stories. And I read Tigana by Guy Gavriel Kay and it forced me to really confront this idea of writing. I wanted to and I wanted to have a go at something like Tigana if I ever did find the courage to take the risk. So really my motivation was other great fantasy tales by people like Guy, Robin Hobb, George R R Martin. I do love what I do but these days it's hard work. I'm on hellish deadlines and I'm writing three novels this year. So I'm on a hugely busy workload and I have to be very disciplined. When you're being really disciplined it never feels like fun. However, let my qualify that by saying late at night, when I'm falling asleep and sort of mulling over the day, the story I'm working on always comes into my mind. I tend to see it like a movie - I'm always very visual about my tales. I go to sleep on it usually and perhaps that's why I can write as I do, i.e. with no plan, because i leave it to my dreams and back of brain to sort out while I sleep. Whatever it is, I know when I wake up, I'm always keen to get to the story and yes, I do look forward to it but I think in a slightly different way to you maybe. I know I have no choice but to get it written by a certain time. I can't stop to worry about how good it is. My only goal is to get a first draft done. So the looking forward is to getting it done, getting it done on time, sitting back in amazement that a story has come together out of nowhere and often nothing. I have liked all my stories, and really enjoyed the journey, so it has been a very positive experience and why I agree with you that I look forward to it. Does any of that rambling make sense?

Post: Reply | Quote

I know I'm the last person to ask about chapter length. Mine are far too short. This may seem like shameless kissing-up but I also find Fiona's average chapter length to be about right. Long enough to be more than a mouthful but short enough that if I'm thinking about going to bed I don't count the pages and think, oh well better leave it for the night.

Not feeling too upbeat about my own writing. I just seem to have hit a wall. I'm trying to figure out now whether the ms I'm working on at the moment was doomed from the start or if I'm just having trouble getting back into it after the distractions I had last week. I also have yet to touch #1.

Anyway, enough of that. Happy scribbling all.

Post: Reply | Quote

Hello everyone!

Sorry I've missed out on the discussions lately, I feel like it's been groundhog day the last three weeks, each day the same as the previous and me sighing as I get into bed and thinking - I still haven't been online today!  Good news though, I finished my ms last week, (hurray!) my deadline was to finish it before my birthday which is today!  I've done a read through and have lots of red font through it with notes about add ins, references to changes in the plot where I need to blend things and get the story back on the right track and so on.  I've put it to one side for now and I'm writing a brief summary of the second book in the series; the characters and plot and then I'll do a chapter break down.  I found this helped me with the first book so I thought I'd stick to the same system.  I don't stick rigidly to the break down but I find a brief outline gives me somewhere to start even if I take a few detours along the way.  I don't think you can set anything in stone when you write otherwise you cut off the creative side of it, don't you think?

I've also had a few people read it - a librarian, teacher and several friends and family members.  I've had no bad reports so far and lots of positive feedback and constructive critisism which was what I wanted... One thing I did want to ask you Fiona - what do you think about a professional manuscript analysis?  Several publishers who wont take unsolicited manuscripts do providing a professional critique accompanies the ms, I was just wondering what your view was on this?

Also, thanks so much Fiona for the chapter information.  My chapters are around the same length (3,500 - 4,000) and I've always left them on a cliffhanger, they just seem to work out that way.  I have been wondering though, if my chapters are too long as it's a children's book (aimed at 10 - 14 ish years).  Fiona, when you were writing 'Whisperer', did you find you stuck to the same pattern or decreased your number of words?

Quick welcome to Ebonyswanne, I hope you get as much out of this forum as I have, and all the very best to you with your story.  I'm very similar in the sense that I can't find enough time in the day to write, I love it so much!

Happy writing all, hopefully catch up with you all next week!

Claire x

Post: Reply | Quote

Forgot to say congratulations to Merryd on the wedding.  I wish you much happiness! 

Post: Reply | Quote

Thanks, Clairea. It was a lovely day. And congratulations on getting your ms completed. It's great to hear you had all positive feedback from the people who read your draft. Marelle, you sound a bit tired. Did you have a bit of a break after you finished your ms or did you launch immediately into the next one? Maybe you didn't give yourself enough of a break and you're just a bit over it. Md x

Post: Reply | Quote

Hi Clairea One thing I did want to ask you Fiona - what do you think about a professional manuscript analysis? Several publishers who wont take unsolicited manuscripts do providing a professional critique accompanies the ms, I was just wondering what your view was on this? The more work you do on a manuscript, when it's the all important breakthrough one, the better. You need to ensure this one is as polished and as professional as you can possibly make it because you want it to sparkle like a diamond among the pile of other mss from equally determined fantasy writers. So I personally see no harm in using a middle man or manuscript assessor but I worry about who! Too many people are holding writing workshops who have never been published and don't understand what is involved. There are likely to be assessment services springing up all over the place but you can't be sure about just how good these people are. You are going to pay through the nose for this service so you have to make absolutely sure that you're working with someone who is very experienced as an editor, perhaps has come out of one of the bigger publishing houses and is now freelancing but also someone familiar or better still, experienced, with editing fantasy. I think you need to explore their credential very thoroughly before you start handing over your baby and your precious dollars. Ask for details of their experience. You might also want to contact your local Writers Centre although you may need to be a member to get info. All the state writing centres can be a wonderful source of info and membership is low - all of you should be members if you can. The Australian Society of Authors is another great resource. Again, membership required but they would have a full list of working freelance editors. The other option is an agent. An agent is like that middle man anyway. He/she will read your work and if they don't think it's got legs, they'll tell you straight out and you'll have some inkling that the mss may not be the one - especially if several agents reject it. If they like it, they will most likely want to help you polish it up and will make some constructive suggestions. But then the best bit is they go into bat for you with the publishers. So it can be win-win with an agent. You have to weigh up how important that representation can be to you. The market in Australia is small enough that you can do it yourself but I would still recommend that for first timers it can be invaluable. Definitely look into your options before you get excited and whip it off to HarperCollins or the like. Remember, this is a one shot, so you want to ensure you've maximised your chances of being noticed. Fiona, when you were writing 'Whisperer', did you find you stuck to the same pattern or decreased your number of words? Whisperer is a standalone novel for children aged 8-10. I reduced the number of words. I think it's around 90,000 words, which is quite big for this age group but they happily devour a large HP novel so we shouldn't second guess how much a reader is prepared to read. But anything over this amount and the publisher felt it might be too daunting for some. I stuck to the same pattern for my chapter lengths because I naturally write to that rhythm and length but the story is very briskly paced with not nearly so much background set up as an adult novel and so a chapter will fly by. Good luck. Sounds like you've been really busy!

Post: Reply | Quote

Sorry, I can't highlight text in any shape or form - not even simple bold or italics. My Mac is really disliked by our BB. Also can't achieve line spaces. Tried it all different ways and the BB mercilessly piles all my words together. Forgive - you'll have to sort out questions from answers and one question from another.

Post: Reply | Quote

ITA fiona, I get some of my best ideas before I go to sleep! I'm still on the story part. I find the idea of sending to an agent scary at this point... Maybe when it's done I might change my mind. The tips here are good. I did start a glossary after someone mentioned it here. I tend to carry around my characters in my head.

-------

"I don't have your eyes...but I have your way of looking at things..."

Post: Reply | Quote

First things first, congratulations Clairea!

As far as my little pity-party goes, you're probably not too far off Merryd, thought I suspect there are some external factors at work too. I have a family with a penchant for the melodramatic and sometimes the backwash of that manages to reach all the way across the Tasman and get me. Mercifully I'm more or less over that now. I'm a walking storm-in-a-teacup. I managed to push through my block on #2 last night and it turns out #1 wasn't a stream of gibberish from start to finish after all.

Post: Reply | Quote

So much for my turning over a new tree, it only lasted a week and oops I'm late again.

Eb thought I would let you know about a mistake I made in case you want to avoid doing the same thing. I would put a word count at the end of each chapter. On an average they were around 3500, but overall were all shapes and sizes because I just let them finish where it came naturally. Then when I started my first re-write I made the fatal mistake of thinking maybe they are suppose to be around the same size. So then came the shuffle of taking bits of this one and adding it to the next and visa versa. Now after doing all that including the bits and pieces of editing I did with it, I soon discovered they just didn't flow or have the impact I wanted anymore. So out came the old backup disk I had so I could put things back to where I started before my brain rush. Which in turn made me lose all that painstaking editing (which was heaps because my grammar has a lot to be desired.) So after that time consuming exercise I stopped looking at the chapter word count just in case my memory began to fade and I tried it again.

This week has been a good one for me onto #2 and enjoying that fresh feeling of starting from scratch again and coming up with ideas for story lines. Beats feeling like I'm stuck in dictionary/grammar quicksand with no way out. 

Thanks everyone heaps of great advise this week

Post: Reply | Quote

Hi Fiona, It's Safari unfortunately. I use Netscape for your BB wherever possible because otherwise my text ends up like this. There seems nothing can be done about it. Md

Post: Reply | Quote

Hi Everyone!

Thank you so very very much Fiona for all of your wonderful advice and don't worry I was able to decipher it no problem.  I am a member of the SCBWI (society of childrens book writers and illustrators) so I shall interrogate our regional manager, Dianne about a reputable editor and/or agent.  I had thought about an agent but thought they would want an analysis of the ms before they would consider representation - just shows how much I know!!

As to the word count, I have found my chapters are between 3500-4000 as I mentioned earlier.  My ms is only 80,000 words long since childrens novels are generally 40,000 - 60,000 on average, (I've done a bit of research!) I was hoping it wasn't too long, but I figured that HP was much longer so wasn't too perturbed, and now that I've found out yours is 90,000 I feel even more relieved! 

I have a long way to go yet before I attempt to get it published, as you said I want my story to stand out, and that's only going to happen if I can make it the best it can be. Thanks everyone for your praise and inspiring words.  Happy writing.

Claire x

Post: Reply | Quote

Thats for the advice Fiona!

I did a word count on my chapters and i found they were on adverage 6,000 words long. I'll keep that word count in  mind when I'm determining a new chapter start, I have enough mini cliff hangers to split them up more.

 

-------

"I don't have your eyes...but I have your way of looking at things..."

Post: Reply | Quote

Much like you, Fi, I'd certainly have to say that I just let them find their own ending.  Some seem to end sooner than others but it just has to feel right for the story.  I've never had one go so long that I felt it was unwieldy and never had one so short that it felt unworthy.  I just tell the story as it comes and when it comes to its end, it's the right place and the right time to move on.

-------

Slàinte!